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» Top 10 NHL Players of All-Time Lists


artermis
 Posted: Mar 25 2018, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (WannabeFinn @ Mar 25 2018, 01:22 PM)
Gretzky as a 2nd liner lol what the fuck

He quite simply does not have the skillset to survive in today's league, so I believe he'd be a second liner at best

QUOTE (karey @ Mar 25 2018, 01:45 PM)


He's 57 give him a break, if was playing now I think 2nd line would be appropriate, artemis was onto something.... or I misinterpreted his comment and he's out to lunch.


Chalk one up to misinterpretation

I'm talking 1980's Gretzky being one of the greatest players of all time relative to his own time, but I believe he is not the greatest player to ever play as the game has progressed to the point where if 1980's Gretzky were to play in today's league, he'd be, at best, a strong 2nd liner, but I personally believe he'd be more of a depth player.

EDIT: I retract my depth player statement, his creativity would likely be enough to put him above the average player

This post has been edited by artermis: Mar 25 2018, 03:57 PM

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QUOTE (MWHazard)
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i play with them a lot.
they didn't like it at first
but after a while, it just felt normal

QUOTE (Justice @ Sep 18 2016, 02:09 PM)
4-0 and 0-4 aren't that different tbh

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artermis
 Posted: Mar 25 2018, 04:02 PM
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The reason for my edit and my concession of a point was that the Gretzky highlights I saw made the game look very dated and slow and not nearly as skillful as today's hockey.

I then proceeded to google a highlight reel of Gretzky so as to affirm my evidence, but I'm seeing highlights that I've never seen before that put Gretzky well above the mark I had him at; he was quite advanced for a player in his day, and that's what'd keep him high enough on an all-time greats list of the second variety I mentioned earlier.

However, we must remember highlights are not a treat that do not occur every game and that these videos or this "evidence" spans two decades of hockey.

I admit I was wrong to underestimate Gretzky, but I still believe that today's best players outmatch Gretzky in terms of skill.

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QUOTE (MWHazard)
i'll playwith anyone
playing with my teammates is part of the intangibles I bring to the table
i play with them a lot.
they didn't like it at first
but after a while, it just felt normal

QUOTE (Justice @ Sep 18 2016, 02:09 PM)
4-0 and 0-4 aren't that different tbh

QUOTE (McJesus - Today at 10:38 PM)

FIRE EGGY
HIRE ARTY

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Abdeezy
 Posted: Mar 25 2018, 04:10 PM
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1. Mario Lemieux - Best player of all time
2. Pavel Datsyuk - best hands, amazing skill, so much fun to watch and can watch highlights all day
3. Ilya Kovalchuk - was a phenom when I watched hockey the most
4. Steven Stamkos - current fav player, raw goal scoring and best all around player not named Crosby n McDavid
5. PK Subban - best hockey personality and great defender, fav defender of all time, reason why I loved the habs
6. Mats Sundin - was a leafs fan as a kid and he was the man
7. Peter Forsberg - one of the best players and so fun to watch, that shootout move tho
8. Scott Neidermayer - Fav defender from my childhood
9 Henrik Lundqvist - fav goalie of all time, had a ton of fun watching him in the playoffs a few years ago
10. Martin Brodeur - best goalie of all time and unique style
11. Marian Gaborik - was a closet rangers fan when he and Lundqvist were beasts together in NY

This post has been edited by Abdeezy: Mar 25 2018, 04:12 PM

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Slappydoodle
 Posted: Mar 25 2018, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE (artermis @ Mar 25 2018, 11:55 AM)


I mean, real talk



In short, I think it's safe to say that all the best players to have ever played in the league are playing now or have played recently, due to the fact that the game has evolved so much. For instance, if Orr and Gretzky played in today's league, I highly doubt they'd be noticeable as stars, perhaps, and this is only optimistically, as strong second liners.




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ORIGINSZ
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 12:07 AM
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Even Era Adjusted Gretzky finishes first. Its just not as big a gap, and he loses a few records like most goals in a season to Ovi/Hull. Saying he is a second liner in todays NHL does baffle me. Arguements can be made for players better in NHL history like Lemiuex/Orr etc

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artermis
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (Slappydoodle @ Mar 26 2018, 12:37 AM)



I love you brother, now and always but....... You really need to get off the pipe kid. Remember, dope is for dopes.

http://aussielapidaryforum.com/forum/Smileys/classic/cheers.gif

Jokes on u

I'm as clean as a . . . . well, I'm clean.

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QUOTE (MWHazard)
i'll playwith anyone
playing with my teammates is part of the intangibles I bring to the table
i play with them a lot.
they didn't like it at first
but after a while, it just felt normal

QUOTE (Justice @ Sep 18 2016, 02:09 PM)
4-0 and 0-4 aren't that different tbh

QUOTE (McJesus - Today at 10:38 PM)

FIRE EGGY
HIRE ARTY

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artermis
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE (ORIGINSZ @ Mar 26 2018, 01:07 AM)
Even Era Adjusted Gretzky finishes first. Its just not as big a gap, and he loses a few records like most goals in a season to Ovi/Hull. Saying he is a second liner in todays NHL does baffle me. Arguements can be made for players better in NHL history like Lemiuex/Orr etc

What I was going at really goes beyond stats.

For instance, I'm sure, when adjusted, Joe Malone's numbers are huge, but I'd be curious if he could even crack an NHL squad today.

As for Gretzky, I retracted the strongest of my statements, as there are definitely parts of Gretzky's game that fit into today's and he'd likely be adaptable enough to fit in as a potentially strong player, once again I'd just like to to say that it's not my fault that all I've seen of his highlights are unimpressive slapshots and quick stickhandles that are trivial in today's hockey.

The biggest questions to me are if Gretzky can handle the pace and skating style of the new age of hockey (from what I can tell, he has great skating ability, so even if he's not as quick he could likely slow down play) and, most importantly, how Gretzky would fare against modern-day goaltenders. Perhaps today's defenders would be a problem as well, but I don't know any particular attributes that have changed drastically with defence.

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QUOTE (MWHazard)
i'll playwith anyone
playing with my teammates is part of the intangibles I bring to the table
i play with them a lot.
they didn't like it at first
but after a while, it just felt normal

QUOTE (Justice @ Sep 18 2016, 02:09 PM)
4-0 and 0-4 aren't that different tbh

QUOTE (McJesus - Today at 10:38 PM)

FIRE EGGY
HIRE ARTY

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Beaver
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (artermis @ Mar 26 2018, 12:58 PM)

What I was going at really goes beyond stats.

For instance, I'm sure, when adjusted, Joe Malone's numbers are huge, but I'd be curious if he could even crack an NHL squad today.

As for Gretzky, I retracted the strongest of my statements, as there are definitely parts of Gretzky's game that fit into today's and he'd likely be adaptable enough to fit in as a potentially strong player, once again I'd just like to to say that it's not my fault that all I've seen of his highlights are unimpressive slapshots and quick stickhandles that are trivial in today's hockey.

The biggest questions to me are if Gretzky can handle the pace and skating style of the new age of hockey (from what I can tell, he has great skating ability, so even if he's not as quick he could likely slow down play) and, most importantly, how Gretzky would fare against modern-day goaltenders. Perhaps today's defenders would be a problem as well, but I don't know any particular attributes that have changed drastically with defence.

I do think it's underappreciated just how much "sports science," training, etc has advanced even within our lifetimes and so I tend to agree with you that if 18 year old Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, etc somehow time traveled to 2005 and entered the league they wouldn't have been nearly as great as they were in their own era. That said, who's to say that if Gretzky was born in 1991 instead of 1961 that he wouldn't have been just as dominant now than he was with a better body of knowledge about diets, training, etc? To me it's important to keep in mind not only the differences in era for scoring (ie: it's much more impressive to score 100 points in 2001 than it was in 1985) but also the advantage that modern players have with more information available to them.


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Muerto
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 02:35 PM
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1. Am I maybe the only person around who ever watched Gretzky in his prime? The guy was so far ahead of everyone else he played with. He was unreal. I do agree that he played in a generally slower overall league, compared to today's game, But he didn't set all those records by fluke, he was that fucking good.
2. Bobby Orr - redefined what was possible for a defenseman
3. Gordie Howe - Gretzky and Orr say he was the bets, so, I trust them
4. Mario Lemieux - size and talent, and one of the nicer players I have met in person
5. Connor McDavid - still a lot to prove but fuck he is so good and so exciting and will probably be number 1 on my list before long
6. Paul Coffey - homer bias for sure but he was Orr 2.0
7. Glenn Anderson - I modeled my game after his, speedy fearless playmaker
8. Mark Messier - fucked shit up
9. Sidney Crosby - golden goal will live forever
10. Pavel Bure - I normally hate the Canucks but I loved his speed and flash

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ThatDamnMcJesus
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 05:22 PM
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Arty. Gretzky wasnt the most skilled player during his time. The thing that made him so great that he was ten steps ahead of everyone on the ice.

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artermis
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE (ThatDamnMcJesus @ Mar 26 2018, 06:22 PM)
Arty. Gretzky wasnt the most skilled player during his time. The thing that made him so great that he was ten steps ahead of everyone on the ice.

Couldn't agree more, I think another thing that set him apart (and also while trying to avoid the cheesy chess analogies that so many people use) was the fact that he played hockey as it would become after he retired, save for the speed of the play.

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QUOTE (MWHazard)
i'll playwith anyone
playing with my teammates is part of the intangibles I bring to the table
i play with them a lot.
they didn't like it at first
but after a while, it just felt normal

QUOTE (Justice @ Sep 18 2016, 02:09 PM)
4-0 and 0-4 aren't that different tbh

QUOTE (McJesus - Today at 10:38 PM)

FIRE EGGY
HIRE ARTY

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artermis
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE (Beaver @ Mar 26 2018, 03:18 PM)

I do think it's underappreciated just how much "sports science," training, etc has advanced even within our lifetimes and so I tend to agree with you that if 18 year old Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, etc somehow time traveled to 2005 and entered the league they wouldn't have been nearly as great as they were in their own era. That said, who's to say that if Gretzky was born in 1991 instead of 1961 that he wouldn't have been just as dominant now than he was with a better body of knowledge about diets, training, etc? To me it's important to keep in mind not only the differences in era for scoring (ie: it's much more impressive to score 100 points in 2001 than it was in 1985) but also the advantage that modern players have with more information available to them.

OH no, I absolutely agree.

Due to concepts such as tabula rasa, Gretzky/Orr could be just as good, worse or not play hockey at all had they been born at a later date, but in the interests of the second type of "greatest ever" list I defined earlier, I think that's too much of a liberty to take

This post has been edited by artermis: Mar 26 2018, 05:28 PM

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QUOTE (MWHazard)
i'll playwith anyone
playing with my teammates is part of the intangibles I bring to the table
i play with them a lot.
they didn't like it at first
but after a while, it just felt normal

QUOTE (Justice @ Sep 18 2016, 02:09 PM)
4-0 and 0-4 aren't that different tbh

QUOTE (McJesus - Today at 10:38 PM)

FIRE EGGY
HIRE ARTY

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CFJ
 Posted: Mar 26 2018, 05:33 PM
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I'm liking the discussion here surrounding The Great One.

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